UFOs as Unidentified Fascist Observatories by John Judge

“Enhanced” Audio Version / Original Audio Version

 

Rare audio interview via phone with parapolitical researcher, John Judge, conducted by KPFK radio host, Roy Tuckman (“Roy of Hollywood” and his Something’s Happening show). It is unclear whether this interview ever actually aired. A transcript of this interview was previously published in this official publication, Judge For Yourself: A Treasury of Writing by John Judge from Publisher Say Something Real Press LLC in 2017 with a Foreword by Kenn Thomas, Introduction by David T Ratcliffe (Ratical.org) and Edited by Joseph E Green (co-founder and CEO of the small press Say Something Real). See also, the nonprofit Hidden History Center.

 

Original Audio Version / “Enhanced” Audio Version

This audio recording is also, apparently, part of the Claire T. Carney Library Archives and Special Collections, University of Massachusetts Dartmouth Repository; though it lists the date as August 16th instead of August 12th – perhaps the interview recording was aired on KPFK radio and that is the explanation for this alternate date.

John Judge/Roy Tuckman KPFK, 8/16/89

 

Adam Gorightly’s Radio GoGo podcast episode #5 intro… (circa 2017)

• Audio of Gorightly’s Intro (MP3)

Live from Radio City. It’s the Radio GoGo Show with Adam Gorightly.

Welcome to episode five of Radio GoGo!

When I first started this podcast, part of the idea behind it was on occasion to post some rare and weird stuff from my audio archives. And so that’s what’s happening this week – a recording digitized from cassette called Unidentified Fascist Observatories. An interview with John Judge conducted by Roy Litzker [1] of KPFA Public Radio. A tape that was privately circulated at the time in the late nineteen eighties. I don’t believe this interview ever aired, although it was later transcribed and appeared in a collection of John Judge interviews and essays put out by Prevailing Winds Research, entitled Judge for Yourself.

It was quite influential to me at the time, because it presented the thesis that UFO sightings were really a cover for U.S. covert operations and experimental aircraft developed by the Nazis, a la Project Paperclip, sponsored by the CIA and Military intelligence as part of an overall disinformation campaign to cover up the truth about flying saucers.

In retrospect, I think Judge got more wrong than right in this interview, but it definitely made for some fascinating listening at the time, back in the late eighties, as Judge was one of the first researchers to go down this path. But it was more a working theory than anything. Judge never really provided much in the way of evidence… that for instance, Donald Keyhoe or Allen Hynek were CIA, or that George Adamski was a paid intelligence asset or agent. All of which might have been true. But once again, it was simply a theory based on circumstantial evidence.

One claim Judge made during this interview was that Kenneth Arnold and Jack Parsons were flying partners, which really blew my mind at the time because I was quite aware of Parsons’ connections to ritual magic and UFOs. [2] So this claim about him being flying buddies with Arnold was indeed a mind blower, if true. Afterwards, this claim got repeated in a few books and articles, some of them mine and now some regarded as fact. But I was never comfortable with the evidence Judge presented, which was simply his word. 

Back in my Facebook days, when Judge was still among us – he died a couple years ago – I did the Facebook chat thing with him one night, asking where he got that information about Parsons and Hubbard, and at first he was sort of vague – that he couldn’t remember exactly where he’d heard it from, and then he settled on the answer that he must have read it in the 

Feral House book called Sex and Rockets, authored by John Carter. The only problem was Sex and Rockets came out a few years after Judge recorded this Unidentified Fascist Observatories interview. When I pulled out my copy of Sex and Rockets and followed up on this, [I found that] on page 188, to be exact, it read, quote:

“An unconfirmed statement attributed to conspiratologist John Judge claimed that Parsons may have flown with the pilot, Kenneth Arnold.” 

End quote. Anyway, that’s the best answer Judge could give me. I’ve seen nothing over the years that corroborates his claim.

Once again, other writers like Nick Redfern, for instance, have mentioned this supposed connection, but Nick’s source was also John Judge. And trust me, I spent quite a lot of time looking into this claim and trying to confirm it, but never could.

I now considered it an urban legend.

I want to thank SMiles Lewis for helping me relocate this recording.

And now, without further ado, please enjoy this John Judge blast from the past.

INTRO NOTES:

1. “Roy Litzger” – Roy Tuckman
2. See… Adam Gorightly (Anomaly Archives)
   • Ritual Magic, Mind Control and the UFO Phenomenon [Part 1] 
   • Adam Gorightly Were the Early Contactees Ritual Magicians Recorded 08 July 2007 – Historia Discordia 
   • Streamathon 2020: Intermission One with Special Presentation of Adam Gorightly’s “Were the Early UFO Contactees Ritual Magicians?” presented at The League Of Western Fortean Intermediatists Mini-Con in October 2008 in Los Angeles. PLUS Visual Art by Ken Adams and MORE! – Anomaly Archives [New Version Coming Soon!]
   • Were the early UFO contactees ritual magicians? Joseph L. Flatley interviews Adam Gorightly Aug 31, 2021

 

---

Rough Transcript of John Judge (right) Interviewed by Roy Tuckman (left)

Audio Only (Raw Original MP3)

Audio Only (Enhanced MP3)

 

TRANSCRIPT

Roy Tuckman: … August 12th, 1989 and we are on the telephone with John Judge. Researcher. Hello, John. 

John Judge: Hi. How are you, Roy? 

Roy: It’s a nice surprise to be able to get in contact with you, with you and get some things down on tape. Um, we had a program a couple of weeks ago which has had a huge response of interest, and it had to do about unidentified flying objects. So we’re collecting information about them. This was, um, an excerpt from the MUFON conference that took place in Las Vegas. And we heard from John Lear, uh, M. W. Bill Cooper and, uh, Bill English. I think Don Ecker was on and, uh, we heard amazing stories about, um, Uh, aliens, many different types of aliens, maybe up to one hundred dead and some alive being held by the US government. Uh, US Soviet space stations on the moon and Mars. Uh, a deal between the government and aliens to give them, allow them to take and mutilate bodies in exchange for high technology information. Uh, even, uh, I don’t remember the exact, um, connections here. There was so much material, but also dipping into the Kennedy assassination and, uh, the drug run, the reasons, the motivation behind the drug running by the US government in, uh, uh, Southeast Asia and Central America. [1, 2] So that’s quite a mouthful. The interest is high. Do you know anything about UFOs and this kind of stuff? 

John: I started studying, uh, UFO phenomena when I was about twelve or thirteen. My parents were also civilian employees of the Pentagon. My family and I was often brought into the Pentagon during a workday and left off in the library. In the Pentagon library, I had access to such things as Project Blue Book and Grudge and Twinkle. The formal reports that were given from these U.S. Air Force studies in the nineteen fifties of UFO phenomena, as well as international publications like UFO World Report that gave every sighting around the world. And I was also in those years, getting many of the independent small magazines by investigators that were looking into the phenomena. My conclusion in that period, and it’s been nothing but bolstered since by anything that I’ve seen, um, is that these sightings, most of which took place, uh, right around military U.S. military bases, some of which went into and out of water, uh, in [enough of] the instances were were actually sightings of an advanced but hidden technology controlled by the United States government and developed under the auspices of the Advanced Aerospace and Munitions rocket work done in Nazi Germany at the end of the war as part of Hitler’s push to develop ultimate weapons. The existence of these weapons, I found later was known to the U.S. occupying forces, and I believe that part of the motivation in bringing the top Nazi scientists here under Project Paperclip was to make sure that what they knew about these advanced technologies because, for instance, in the late early forties, the Nazis had already developed jet engines. Uh, I have reports in certain publications from American GIs who went into these caves outside of Berlin and in some other areas of Germany, which were being used. Underground caves were being used to conceal aerospace, and munitions work and in these caves were functional saucers or flying discs that could – both manned and unmanned – that could travel at tremendous speed. [3] I have articles that I picked up in the nineteen seventies, uh, one by a member of the Royal Astronomical Society in England, where he admits that, uh, upwards of ten thousand remotely piloted vehicles, RPVs were under the control of British intelligence and known also to U.S. forces. [4] Uh, at the time, being used basically as reconnaissance or low level spy craft. And he admits that these were hidden technology that could go tremendous speed, uh, could make, uh, equivalent of right angle turns in certain circumstances, uh, and had a technology beyond what was generally admitted at the time. Uh, William S Burroughs, I think says it best, uh, in terms of the mentality of people in the post-war era and the development of the Cold War and the national security state. He says that if Magellan was an American and he was alive today and this, that our level of knowledge was like the Middle Ages, and we thought that the world was round instead of flat. And Magellan sailed around and or flat instead of round. And he sailed around and found out that the opposite was true, that the world was really round that, that we wouldn’t tell anybody because we’d be able to attack from the rear. And I think that that’s the governing mentality of a lot of the people in control in the U.S. government and in these fascist governments, which is to hide the advanced technology from the people, because then it can be used both as a psychological manipulation and hidden weaponry against whatever perceived enemy there is. So I think that we knew what they were. I think we were testing them in 1947 and 1948, in the early years over civilian populations. I think they served as low level cloud cover and also served additional purposes, like to go below cloud cover for satellite spying and did other kinds of reconnaissance. And they were either remotely piloted or could be manned and, uh, looked like the disks that people described. But the official position of the government was, uh, either what Jacques Vallée in his book Messages [sic; Messengers] of Deception [5], says is the Republican or the Democratic view on UFOs either. Either they’re swamp gas and you didn’t see it at all, or you did see it and its extraterrestrials. The truth of the matter is that they are real, but they are terrestrial craft and their spycraft, and they’re controlled by the US government. Um, I think that, uh, it’s telling that many of the people who then came in in the 1950s to take over these fields and started some of the national agencies that grew into MUFON and the group that you heard from were themselves military intelligence agents [6], uh, Donald Keyhoe from Air Force Intelligence, Allen Hynek, who worked with the secretive Blue Book projects and, uh, and these others who were supposedly trying to determine what the UFOs were, but in fact, really just trying to find out what people were seeing and what effect they were having and to cover up what really was going on. Uh, these people became the experts and the independent investigators and the small magazines folded them in ‘58 and ‘59, uh, and were replaced with either government denial, uh, these, these phony scientific committees or people like George Adamski, who I heard speak when I was thirteen years old and knew that he was lying at that time, who claimed that he had been to Mars and been to the moon and traveled in the ships with the aliens, and it came out years later that Adamski was being financed in these lectures worldwide by the Central Intelligence Agency. [7] But I knew that he protested too much about government cover up when I heard him when I was thirteen – I could tell that he wasn’t straightforward and that he was making up stories. And so I believe that this is yet another flap, and it doesn’t surprise me that people like John Lear admit to CIA backgrounds and others in this MUFON group. This guy Cooper, who are pushing this idea that certain deals were cut with the aliens and, you know, they’re like you say, they’re given bodies to mutilate in exchange for high technology. [8] All of this is smokescreen and cover for the reality, which is that the U.S. government has an advanced technology, and they get psychological manipulation points by pushing the UFO line. They’re able to manipulate certain people in different ways. Jacques Vallée, in his work, discovered that the main people in the contactee cults are themselves long time military intelligence agents. This is true in a number of the cults, including this one out… I don’t know if you’ve heard of the one out in Arizona desert that involves one of the NASA astronauts. But the guy who runs that cult is not only military intelligence, but he’s also a close friend of John Singlaub. And they do the preparatory work, and then a UFO appears, which proves to people that they’ve been in touch with the aliens. And then as their psychic spiritual exercise, uh, the aliens tell them to do is that they concentrate all their mental and psychic powers with the purpose of killing the Soviet Premier and getting rid of Gorbachev. [9] Um, so this is… we’re supposed to believe the kind of things that the aliens want us to do, but I think it’s much more likely that NASA and Navy intelligence and John Singlaub, who heads the World anti-Communist league, would like us to do those kind of things, but think that it’s little green men instead of U.S. government that’s telling us to do it. Um, and I find it interesting that they would mention the stuff about Mars and the moon. There’s a big push on right now from the LaRouche faction to reinstate the Nazi rocket scientists that have been kicked out of the country, like Rudolph, to have a Manhattan style project like we did on the nuclear weapons to colonize outer space. George Bush recently came out and started talking about colonies on Mars and the moon. And there is a book that Mae Brussell mentioned in her shows years ago, uh, in England, it’s not in the United States called Alternative-3 [10], which suggested that, uh, bases already existed on Mars and the moon back in the late seventies, uh, that people were being brought up there from, uh, from the earth with our technology and not with any alien technology. Uh, and that this was part of trying to find out if they could colonize, uh, worlds in the future and live on other planets within enclosed, uh, structures (?). It sounds fairly wild, but they had quite a bit of evidence. It was, uh, this guy Davies who had done a British documentary on what nuclear war would look like, put the book out. And he said that scientists involved with it who tried to defect were being killed with what he called burn jobs, which would be an ability to concentrate microwave from satellites. And I think it’s interesting that a lot of the satellites are going up, and it’s going to have a beam that can hit an ICBM traveling at five thousand miles an hour. Well, if it can do that and if it can see a golf ball on the ground, don’t you think it can hit you walking five miles an hour along the road or traveling in your car? A number of these people appear to have spontaneously combusted from inside out in the situations that Alternative-3 suggests. And he was, he was positing that microwave or other kinds of wave energy could be beamed down enough to kill a person and or to start forest fires in large cities, which was part of the planning that originally went into the thinking of SDI because the Star Wars defense really dates back… I mean, if you go back to 1964 or five in TIME magazine and they’re asking, where are they now about General Walter Dornberger, who was one of the top Nazi scientists that was brought here. [11] He helped do the rocket work with von Braun at Dora, at the slave camp there, and he was brought to the United States, and he was living in Buffalo, and he wanted satellites to go around the planet, uh, you know, once every ninety minutes carrying nuclear warheads. This was back in 1963, ‘64, he had these kinds of plans. We talk now about the shuttle going up and down. Well, the Nazi rocket scientists were working on, uh, craft that would go out into space and then return back through the atmosphere so they wouldn’t be radar detected. Uh, and they would carry a bomb payload. Uh, so I don’t call them Unidentified Flying Objects. I call them Unidentified Fascist Observatories. Uh, and I think that that’s what we’ve got in the air is, um, uh, is these, uh, these technological advancements that the government doesn’t want us to know about. And when we get close to it, we’re told that it’s little green men from Mars or some other distant galaxy, and that they manipulate the consciousness around it and use it as a programming device. I talked to somebody about one of the cults, and one, one of the people running that cult, they use the drug XTC, bragged to them about, uh, about having programmed Mark David Chapman. And there’s a link in between a number of the key Kennedy assassination figures. I’d be interested to know what they said on the show about the Kennedy assassination, because there’s a link between some of the Kennedy assassination figures in the early list of the UFO incidents that were reported to the government in 1947. [12] Kenneth Arnold, who reported the first of what were called flying saucers in Spokane, Washington, in nineteen forty seven, uh, was a flying partner, his co-pilot with Jack Parsons. [13] Parsons was a member of Navy Intelligence. He was working in Navy Intelligence with L Ron Hubbard, who later founded Scientology, and the two of them were busy infiltrating the Ordo Templi Orientis, the OTO, one of the Satanic cults for Navy intelligence. [14] And it’s very much in the interests of the intelligence agencies to have a handle into any of the existing cults or to study the psychic phenomena, because first they want to see if any of it is powerful enough to be used as a weapon or some sort of secret mission device. So they look at it that way. And secondly, even if they know it’s phony, it’s a good programming device. And so they will put up phony psychics like Navy Intelligence, for instance, provided the alloy that’s hard at room temperature, but melts with a little bit of rubbing from the fingers. When it gets to body temperature, it becomes flexible. And it’s a special metal alloy that Navy intelligence developed. [15] And they gave this alloy to Uri Geller and ran Uri Geller around, supposedly using Martian energy to bend the spoons, and the space brothers would come through them and bend these spoons and forks. Well, the reason they were bending with him, just touching them, is that they were a different alloy than, uh, than stainless steel or the things that normal spoons are made out of. He used legerdemain and, you know, is, uh, sleight of hand stuff in, in order to, uh, to make people believe that he was some kind of a psychic. Uh, his dentist, uh, was the person who developed the patents on six different, uh, the earliest mind control devices for the CIA and military intelligence, which were actually implants into the jaw or the teeth of radio transmitters so that the instructions could be heard through the teeth. [16] And this guy that Uri Geller used as a dentist, uh, and maybe was programmed by himself, uh, holds the patents on six of these early mind control devices back in the time when Nelson Rockefeller, General Edward Lansdale, and the US military was developing the Manchurian Candidate [17] capability, and they didn’t wait thirty years to get that capability like John Marks’ cover up book suggests. [18] They had programming ability for assassins back in the late 1940s. What we’ve got today is a situation where they will use these cults as the programming matrix and make somebody like Son of Sam, who thinks that a devil talks to him through a black dog, you know, and goes out and does these mass murders. Well, I have an article from his best friend in the Philadelphia Inquirer who was with him in in his military unit in Korea when he was a clerk, a supply clerk for the army. And this guy says that Son of Sam, then David Berkowitz, applied for conscientious objector status. And he’s quoted in the paper saying when he applied for CO, the brass gave him acid. Well, the brass doesn’t give you acid. The officers don’t supply acid to the troops, but they may have given him some acid, drug or derivative that was part of the study of what was called MKUltra. This study by military intelligence and the CIA to control the mind with drugs and made him acceptable, you know, for programming. So Mae Brussell used to call him son of Uncle Sam. So he can think the devil told him to do it. Or little green men tell the current assassins to do it but the reality is that it’s all the U.S. government and the military intelligence forces, and people need to look beyond all this hype and see what’s actually going on, and that it isn’t anything more alien than, than the alienation that people should feel from fascism and from people who try to manipulate our consciousness and, and control us. So that’s my hit on the so-called UFO phenomena. 

Roy: Well, what if this is the case and that the U.S. government has access to this high technology since the forties? What’s all the space program and the giant rockets taking off and occasionally exploding in Florida? 

John: Well, I think, as Mae thought, that some of the explosions are for political purpose and are actually sabotage situations. And she certainly thought that about the shuttle Challenger, which along with the other shuttles, has been used consistently for military missions. It came out at the time that if the next shuttle had gone up as scheduled and it had been the one to blow up, it would have been carrying a huge payload of, uh, of radioactive plutonium, because many of these outer space vehicles are using nuclear reactors or have nuclear payloads on them. And that had that been the (one to) go up, it would have spread plutonium across the state of Florida and, uh, and could have killed millions of people. Uh, Mae felt that, uh, this explosion of the (shuttle) Challenger served several purposes, one of which was the death of, uh, a lot of the key non-traditional astronauts that had come in, in the, in the 1970s; the only women, the only Jews, the only blacks, the only Vietnam vets, uh, she called it the rainbow coalition that died in the shuttle Challenger explosion. And then we come back in with the right stuff with the Aryan boys and they, uh, you know, all male, all white and blonde haired and athletic again, the stuff that the NASA Nazis were looking for. You have to understand that NASA was really developed right from the beginning by Wernher von Braun and the, and these Nazis and the people that worked on the rockets for Hitler were the ones that developed the Saturn V and and got us to the moon. And maybe we think that getting to the moon, getting two men to the moon is worth the death of, you know, six million Jews and, you know, thirteen million altogether that died in the war. Um, you know, under the Holocaust. But, uh, but I hardly think it was worth it. But that’s the energy. That’s the people that are doing the, uh, the outer, outer space technology stuff from the beginning. And of course, it’d be in their interest to, to hide this kind of thing from us, um, and to manipulate it. And Mae felt that the bonus additional on the shuttle Challenger was that it got rid of all the civilian input, the civilian programming. That was the last one where they were going to suggest putting up somebody like this teacher, Christa McAuliffe, who was also a peace and labor rights activist herself and was the one chosen to go up and then blows, blows up in the situation. We’re not saying now that we want teachers to go up on the new shuttle. All the shuttle stuff is I mean, I just saw in the paper yesterday that the public is going to be, uh, kept away from the landing of the shuttle when it comes back down; the current flight of the shuttle, the most recent one, they’re not going to be allowed to see it land and…

Roy: We are going to be allowed to pay for it, though. 

John: Well, yeah, we’re allowed to pay for it. We’re allowed to pay for all, the all the secret stuff and the, the whole national security state. I mean, you know, we, they take it out of our pocket and, but, but it’s all now secret military missions. And, uh, you know, they’re bringing they’re bringing the Star Wars satellites up or whatever they’re doing, we’re not allowed to know about it. And it has no further, no civilian purpose. It’s all military purpose and military run and, uh, total security. So she really felt that that was the advantage of some of these explosions. But of course, things do happen and they make mistakes. And even with the best technology, things can go wrong. Um, you know, I don’t want to suggest that nothing could happen just because it’s advanced, but what I’m saying is that it’s to their interest. If you think about it, if they discover a technology that’s really going to boost them forward, it’s better for them to keep that secret and use it as a weapon or to do things that they figure the other side, or us who are really the enemies don’t know about. Rather than to reveal it to us, at least for certain periods of time, and then to bring it in over time. You know, in a way that they can market or manipulate it in, in the best way. And so I think that, you know, what we got from the Nazis was a great deal more than we admitted. We know now, for instance, that the Japanese war criminals that were testing chemical and biological warfare on American and other prisoners, Chinese prisoners, were through the intervention of Douglas MacArthur and the intelligence people on his staff. They were kept from being charged with any crimes in exchange for giving us the, the actual scientific results of their studies so that we could use those results in future chemical and biological warfare. And so in exchange, people had done these gruesome anti-human experiments, came on, you know, and put us in the position of, you know, protecting them so that we could get the hidden dirt on how they how they were best being able to kill people with chemical and biological agents. And all these things interrelate. I mean, they interrelate to the secrecy I was talking to somebody today about, um, uh, how the whole mind control thing and MKUltra really started in the 1950s, uh, and what it had to do with was the U.S. use of chemical and biological warfare agents in Korea. But rather than admit that we had used them in Korea when our pilots were downed and signed confessions to the Koreans, when they were presented with the direct evidence, unopened and unexploded canisters of the chemical and biological agents, they admitted and signed confessions that they were doing chemical and biological warfare. 

Roy: That was called brainwashing. 

John: That’s right. Then they sent in psychiatrists and said that these people have been brainwashed. But the point of saying that they were brainwashed was to discredit the confessions so that it would never come out. And there were three American journalists who began to write about the information that the Koreans had, proving that we were doing chemical and biological warfare there. And Eisenhower, on the grounds of national security, had the three of them arrested and thrown into jail, and the book suppressed. And so it could never get out to the American public. What the public heard instead was that these psychiatrists went in and and they talked to these people and these pilots, and then they come out and say that the Koreans have started this brainwashing. Well, not only does that cover up the chemical and biological warfare that we were really doing, it then gives us the excuse in return to say that, well, if the enemy is doing that, then we have to learn to do it. [20] So then it becomes the rationale for all of the our own experiments into mind control, and the whole thing is fabricated. And the two scientists, two psychiatrists that were used, one by the army and one by the Air Force, go on into the top positions in that MKUltra work. One of them is currently at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute, an infamous psychiatrist by the name of Doctor Jolyon West or Jolly West, who was part of plans here in California to build a center for the study of the reduction of violence that would have used an abandoned Nike missile base and tested on prisoners and other populations. He continues testing with LSD and other derivatives on mind control stuff out under government contract out at the Neuropsychiatric Institute to this day. He’s involved in a number of manipulations, including being the president, I believe, of the board of the American Family Foundation, which is an attempt by families to stop some of the cult activity. Well, well they institute and run the cult activity in the United States through government means. And then this guy gets on to be this sort of anti-cult. I mean, he’s an infiltrator into that into that group, but he’s on the board and pretending that he’s anti-cult when in fact he’s you know, he’s running the techniques that the Moonies and the other cults will use in their operations. The other scientists for the army, the psychiatrists that went in to prove the brainwashing and wrote a book about it back then in the 1950s, uh, is a well respected, supposedly liberal psychiatrist named Robert Jay Lifton. And he talks about, you know, the psychic numbing after the Hiroshima Nagasaki – is well liked in the anti anti-nuclear community. He’s written this recent book, which is basically a cover up called Nazi Doctors, uh, where he interviewed a number of the Nazi psychiatrists that were part of the mass killing; the first killings in Nazi Germany, 300,000 of the psychiatric inmates – 78% of the population of the institutions were wiped out in killing centers by these, uh, experts who developed the gas for the chambers and all of the techniques of death that would be used later. This was ‘37/’38, they started this killing. Under the…

Roy: We just had some sprayed on the city last week. 

John: Pardon? 

Roy: We just had some malathion sprayed on the city again last week. [21]

John: Well, I hear your LAPD choppers are going over the house right now. Um, you know, and this is more of this escalation of the poisons and that kind of stuff. But these psychiatrists were then used as the experts at Bergen-Belsen and Auschwitz. So he goes in, he gets permission to talk to these people. He says (it was for) a study on stress, which I think he was, um, because he’s an expert on war stress. And he interviews these guys and he does the book Nazi Doctors, but he doesn’t name a single Nazi criminal. And then he admits in there that some of them might have been hurt by the situation. Uh, could I take a break here? 

Roy: Yeah. 

John: Okay. 

@ 26 minute mark

Roy: Okay. We’re back. John? 

John: Yeah. Hi. Yeah, we were talking about Robert Jay Lifton, and he has this new book out, Nazi Doctors. [22] But, you know, he doesn’t name a single criminal. He knows them. He knows their names. He interviews them, and then he very cutely says that he’s going to follow the Nuremberg principles that actually had to be set up because of the crimes of these very people. And he’s going to follow the principle that, uh, that doctors should should maintain confidentiality with patients. Well, he’s not a doctor going in, presumably to give these guys therapy. He says that he’s an investigator going in to find out the history of what happened. Uh, so which is it? Or is he a therapist, and is he going in to study their stress levels in order to write a handbook, basically, of how to get past the stress of carrying out genocide for the next Holocaust? Um, if he’s an investigator, then he owes us the names. Uh, but he plays cute and he says, you know, I’m going to, I’m going to be more decent than these Nazis. I’m going to give them the advantage of the Nuremberg principles that had to be set up because of their crimes. And therefore I’m going to protect their privacy and not name them. Well, one of them says to him, if anybody knew about the stuff I’m telling you, I could go to jail, which they could. I mean, the laws are still open. The books are still open in Germany on the war crimes. And these people can and should be tried for the crimes that they committed. But instead, Lifton goes in and plays this cute little game and comes out with this book, no names mentioned. And then in the book develops this nonsense thesis where he gives each one of these Nazi killers, these psychiatrists, the vast benefit of the doubt. He says that they were really very (_?_) human beings that suddenly got pushed out of shape by the Nazi government and forced to kill. And the way they were able to do it, he says, is they doubled themselves. They created second doubled personalities of themselves; they had a killer personality and a decent personality, and that was the way they operated. So this is the work of Robert Jay Lifton, Jolly West. And these were the two psychiatrists that were quoted, one in the New York Times and the other out here in the Los Angeles papers on November the 19th, 1978, the day after the Jonestown Massacre. These are the two that come forward and say to the press and the public that there’s nothing unusual about a mass suicide, and that what happened in Guyana is typical psychological behavior for masses of humans. Well, I suggest you try to go through history and find real documentable examples. Right after that, the television played this Masada thing about the supposed self suicide of the Jews at Masada under Roman attack. But the Roman historian even, um, that wrote about the period and what happened there said that only a few committed suicide and the rest were massacred by the Romans. Uh, you know, if you push an old Nazi far enough, uh, about the camps, they’ll say that the Jews died, uh, of Lebensmüde; they became sick of life, and they formed suicide pacts, and they killed themselves (_?_) in the concentration camps. Could we hold again for a second? [23]

Roy: Yes. 

John: Sorry. 

Roy: I will let you go in a minute. I just wanted to mention that the story they had on the Kennedy, JFK assassination. 

John: Mhm. 

Roy: Is that the on the original Zapruder film, I now see the Zapruder film, so-called Zapruder film focusing in on Kennedy. But in the original film, the whole car, most of the car is shown and in the original film, as he is going through it step by step, I imagine the slides. Uh, he says that the driver is one of the assassins, and the driver turns around, is seen on the film turning around and shooting Kennedy with a revolver, and that Jackie is running. When she jumped out of the car. She’s running from the driver. [24]

John: This, uh, this thesis was being pushed, actually, by another guy who was himself formerly an FBI agent. Uh, down, down here in Los Angeles. I got wind (_?_) in doing hard work on Kennedy and on the ballistics and on the direction of the shots. We know that somebody in the driver’s seat shooting Kennedy would have driven him back and to his right, which is not the direction that he goes. He’s lifted upwards and thrown back and to the left at over one hundred miles per hour. All of his brain matter travels out to the left. It hits the motorcycle cop at the left rear of the motorcade, hard enough through his jacket that he stops and gets over the motorcycle off the motorcycle, thinking he’s been shot. Brain matter shows up thirty yards to the left rear of the motorcycle, so everything is in the opposite direction of a shot from the driver. The driver would have pushed him back and to the right, and the debris and the brain matter would have come off to the right of the motorcade. I think Jackie was, you know, responding in crisis. She was in shock. She said in her testimony, which wasn’t revealed for eight years, that she had climbed out in order to get a piece of brain matter and skull off of the top of the motorcade. And in fact, she does grab that, tries to put his head back together and holds on to the piece of brain until she’s actually in Parkland Hospital, when one of the aides gets her to release the grip on her hand. So I think she was basically in trauma. She might have been frightened. There was shells going everywhere. Connally said, “My God, they’re going to kill us all,” when he got hit, realizing the import of, you know, how many. And Kellerman, one of the Secret Service guys up front described a flurry of shots, which is exactly what they were. I had evidence of in my work of upwards of sixteen different shots from different directions, but the fatal head shot by my work, uh, comes from the right front of the motorcade, not actually up on the grassy knoll where there’s too many people in the way for a shot from there. But from a sewer to the right front, a storm sewer. I’ve been in it. It’s a clear shot. It’s a good military concealed location. I believe it’s a .45 pistol slug. There’s a.45 slug found on the other side of the street in line with the shot. Uh, and there’s photographs of an FBI agent and Bill Decker from the sheriff’s department looking at it. The FBI agent picks it up and pockets it, and that bullet disappears from any official evidence or testimony. But we do know that they picked a .45 slug up over there. I think that’s the one that blew Kennedy’s head apart. Um, and I think that’s why he’s lifted up and out of the seat, not just thrown back, but lifted upwards. And I’ve watched the film hundreds of times. Um, but did their exposition on the Kennedy assassination have some connection with the alien matter? 

Roy: Well, the uh… Kennedy was murdered ostensibly because he was going to, uh, expose and release all the UFO and alien information which had been put in secret. [25]

John: Well, he may have been interested in releasing the alien information I’m talking about, which is the infiltration by Nazis of the CIA. He said he was going to scatter the CIA to the four winds. [26] Presumably that might have included scattering NASA, at least in part in terms of who was in charge of it. He favored the space programs while he was in. But if he was concerned about the Gehlen network and the Nazi spies and the CIA, he might have also been planning to spill the beans on some of the other, uh, other stuff, I don’t know, but I never found any evidence of extraterrestrial contact. I found loads of evidence in my work of, uh, of hidden technology, terrestrial Spycraft and technology that was developed by the Nazis but covered up by the U.S. for all those years. But if Kennedy was threatening powerful forces, I know, for instance, in Torbitt document, the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal by William Torbitt [27], he mentions as one of the five groups responsible for the death of Kennedy. And this was the book that Mae felt was the closest, and I feel is also the closest to describing by name and by organization, who arranged the operation level of the hit. That one of the groups he names was security at NASA and the people around Wernher von Braun and the Nazis at NASA and Defense Industrial Security Command, [28] which would have included NASA security in those days. So I have no question that some of the top Nazi rocket scientists were intimately involved in the planning and execution of murder of John F Kennedy. But I think that was more because they were threatened. He was threatening to blow open the CIA, which would in turn have blown open Uh, NASA, than it had anything to do with, uh, special deals cut with, uh, uh, little green men with wiggly ears. 

Roy: Okay, uh, before you go, could you tell us about the Mae Brussell Research Foundation, which you are chairman? [29]

John: I’m archivist and curator at the Mae Brussel Research Center. When Mae Brussell died in October, um, I, uh, proceeded with plans that she had agreed to before her death, uh, to take her materials, consolidate them, and set up a research center that would serve as a repository for other collections. I’ve already put my own twenty year collection of material in. We have forty two filing cabinets of clippings. We have seven thousand books on these topics. We have hundreds of boxes of her binders and original indexing work. We are busy raising money. First to make a copy or several copies and secure the irreproducible documents in the collection. Uh, and then to make the stuff public. We’re doing that copying by a combination of scanner and other magnetic tape storage methods, and then eventually reading those tapes back into computer using character recognition technology so that we’ll have a text base that can then be searched referentially by names or combination of names. We’re transcribing Mae’s tapes and we have volunteers in many cities doing that. (If) people are interested they can get in touch with us about that. We need tape transcripts typed or put into computers on disks so that we can search everything that she said on her broadcasts and other shows over the seventeen and a half years of her work, and can search it by topic and pull out by topic from these transcripts. And we have about five or six years worth done already, but we’re working very hard to get the whole seventeen years translated into a computer text base. And once we have this on computer, we can have a computer terminal reading room that can reproduce documents there in Santa Cruz. We can fax or modem off of computers out to computer networks around the country and make the really the gold mine of her work over the twenty five years that she did it accessible to many, many more people. We hope also to continue to – by clipping and other methods – to expand the collection. She was clipping fifteen newspapers a day, a hundred and fifty periodicals a month, and reading hundreds of books a year. But she was also spending forty thousand dollars a year to do that. That, those figures aren’t unthinkable for us, but we’re right now still at a five to ten thousand dollar budget and basically trying to stay ahead of the rent. We’ve raised about twenty five thousand since I started in October, and we’re hoping to do more. We’re hoping to be back here in October with a fundraising event in the LA area. People interested can contact Mae Brussell, that’s M A E B R U S S E L L Research Center, P.O. Box 8431, in Santa Cruz, California. That’s PO 8431, Santa Cruz, California 95061. 95061 is the zip code, and people can contact by phone at 408-426-7373. And we’ll gladly send out information, both on the literature we currently have available, and tapes and information on the center and our projects for the future. We’re, among other things, working on about six different current manuscripts that have not been printed by important independent researchers on topics that we think are critical. We’re going to have an indexed version of the Torbitt document out, type set and very readable soon. And we have other manuscripts by a number of researchers, including Fletcher Prouty on The Secret History of the U.S. and we’re working also to develop other media, comics, videotapes, audiotapes, maybe even a nine hundred number for people to call in to get access to this kind of information through a variety of media, as well as our attempts to to develop a computer base that will be accessible so that some of the vast work that we have ahead. Mae had a tremendous collection of material. And I’m sure, as you know, having had her or her tapes, at least on your show, she had an analysis that was at times a decade ahead of what most people understood was happening and was, in that sense, a predictor of these events, not because she had a crystal ball, but because she knew the names and watched the money move and had an analysis clear enough to understand who was in control. And as we now move into the open Bush years, where Bush will be openly President, rather than running the country from behind the scenes – as I believe he did from the day he arranged to have Reagan shot March 31, 1981, till the end of Reagan’s term – that Bush is now openly in on everything in terms of the rise of fascism in the United States is escalating apace from the drug war on black youth and the communities to, uh, to the curbing of constitutional rights in this country and, uh, and the development of the pro-war mentality and U.S. intervention abroad and the ruin of the economy. All of this is going to come to bear under Bush, uh, and be escalated, as well as the continuing war against the Soviet Union and progressive forces here in the United States. 

Roy: Okay. Well, that’s the Mae Brussell Research Center both post office box 8431, Santa Cruz, California, 95061. Telephone 408-426-7373. Okay. Uh, thanks, John. And, uh, we’ll have more news soon about your visit to Los Angeles, October 6th. 

John: Great. Thank you. Roy.

 

---

 

NOTES:

 

1. The story of the 1989 Las Vegas UFO Conference(s) is wild history. It was at the MUFON symposium at which the infamous William “Bill” Moore confession speech occurred. John Lear’s Role in 1989 symposium (wikipedia) 
2. John Lear, Milton William “Bill” Cooper, Bill English, and Don Ecker.
   1. Variety of Classic 1980s UFO & JFK Assassination Myths
      1. Treaty with Aliens to abduct humans
      2. Underground Alien / Human Bases
      3. JFK shot by limo driver
3. Nazi UFO Technology: Facts & Myths
   1. Wunderwaffe / Wonder Weapons
   2. Operation Paperclip
4. Professor Archibald Low (Archibald Montgomery Low) [1, 2, 3, 4], Royal Astronomical Society in England in the 1940s who wrote about remotely piloted vehicles, RPVs. “Father of Radio Guidance”: During World War I, Low led a top-secret British Royal Flying Corps project to design the Aerial Target – an uncrewed, radio-controlled craft intended to counter German Zeppelins, which effectively made him the inventor of the world’s first remotely piloted vehicles (RPVs) and drones. [1, 2]
5. Messengers of Deception by Jacques Vallée (1979)
6. See Wayward Sons: NICAP and the IC by Jack Brewer (2021), his The UFO Trail blog and his Expanding Frontiers book group on this topic (YouTube playlist)
7. See intro at top of this page by Adam Gorightly on misinformation regarding Adamski. See also research on the “R.E. Straith Letter” hoax perpetrated in December 1957 by ufologists James W. Moseley and Gray Barker against prominent UFO “contactee” George Adamski. [1]
8. “…they’re given bodies to mutilate in exchange for high technology.” Shades of Nick Redfern’s books Bodysnatchers in the Desert (2005) [Anomaly Archives] and The Roswell UFO Conspiracy Exposing a Sinister and Shocking Secret (2017). See also Micha Hanks’ reporting on Unit-731 and Operation Paperclip of the East hypothesis for the Roswell incident.
9. Unsure of which cult leader he is referring to. John K. Singlaub (wikipedia). Possible Arizona cult leaders matching this description: Scott Caruthers (The Fake Astronaut Cult Leader) founded the BDX (Beta Dominion Xenophilia), Gabriel of Urantia (The Arizona UFO Cult Leader), Ismael Perez & Bentinho Massaro (The Arizona UFO Summoners), or perhaps fictional character named Rutherford Washington from an online collaborative alternate history project from a forum thread on AlternateHistory.com titled “The Luciferian Crusade: A Collaborative Timeline.”
10. Alternative-3 and Secret Space Program
11. Major-General Dr. Walter Robert Dornberger (6 September 1895 – 26 June 1980) 
12. JFK & UFO: Military-Industrial Conspiracy and Cover-Up from Maury Island to Dallas by Kenn Thomas (2011 revised edition)
13. See again, intro at top of this page by Adam Gorightly on misinformation regarding Adamski and Parsons connection. 
14. Jack Parsons 
15. The Navy Alloy: Nitinol … a shape-memory alloy made of nickel and titanium. Its name is an acronym for Nickel Titanium-Naval Ordnance Laboratory, where it was discovered in 1959 by researchers William J. Buehler and Frederick Wang. See Jacques Vallée’s commentary in various places about this “memory metal” and connections to Battelle Memorial Institute. 
16. Andrija Puharich
17. The Manchurian Candidate (1959), by Richard Condon
18. The Search for the “Manchurian Candidate”: The CIA and Mind Control: The Secret History of the Behavioral Sciences by John D. Marks (CIA.gov PDF) 
19. The United States and Biological Warfare Secrets from the Early Cold War and Korea by Stephen Endicott and Edward Hagerman (Indiana University Press)
20. CIA Docs: U.S. Ran MK-ULTRA Experiments on Korean War POWs (The Intercept)
21. 1989 California medfly attack / Malathion 
22. The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide by Robert Jay Lifton 
23. Lebensmüde is a German adjective that literally translates to “life-tired”. It describes a state of being weary of existence, world-weary, or acting with extreme, reckless disregard for one’s own safety as if possessing a death wish.
24. Milton William “Bill” Cooper is credited with the earliest promotion of the video and theory that the “driver of the presidential limousine, William Greer, used “a gas pressure device developed by aliens from the Trilateral Commission” to shoot the president from the driver’s seat.”
25. See… Micah Hanks podcast 03.25.25. The JFK Files: The CIA and the Birth of the Deep State and Is that JFK memo to the CIA about UFOs real? NBC News (April 21, 2011) 
26. The Real Story Behind That JFK Quote About Destroying the CIA By Matt Novak (March 10, 2017) 
27. Nomenclature of the Assassination Cabal-Torbitt Document (PDF) 
28. For more on the post-WW2 Gehlen Network, Wernher von Braun, Nazis at NASA and Defense Industrial Security Command, see Garrett’s (of Patterns Tell Stories podcast) LibertyBird blog posts / articles. 
29. Mae Brussell resources: MaeBrussell.com, Mae Brussell 1971-1988 Audio Archive / The Compleat Mae Brussell (archive.org), YouTube archives (search), Worldwatchers Archive